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	<title>Comments on: No Honor amongst thieves! So the saying goes</title>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10940</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10940</guid>
		<description>So what your saying is that the write of the edit should have gone on the evening news and made the claim? The guy didn't make that claim, he only said that it was rumored. You know, like Howard didn't say that Braun was on EPO only that it was rumored! 

Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what your saying is that the write of the edit should have gone on the evening news and made the claim? The guy didn&#8217;t make that claim, he only said that it was rumored. You know, like Howard didn&#8217;t say that Braun was on EPO only that it was rumored! </p>
<p>Molly</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10939</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10939</guid>
		<description>Molly,

Thought you'd be interested to know that the &lt;i&gt;Sunday Age&lt;/i&gt; is reporting that a Wikipedian who defamed a certain sports journalist "can expect some interesting mail from the legal fraternity". This likely stemmed from some (implausible) &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dylan_Howard&#38;oldid=153893604" rel="nofollow"&gt;objectionable additions&lt;/a&gt; to Mr Howard's Wikipedia entry involving sex-changes, leprosy and penile attachment surgery.

Goes to show that these guys are serious about protecting their reputation against online smear campaigns and the like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molly,</p>
<p>Thought you&#8217;d be interested to know that the <i>Sunday Age</i> is reporting that a Wikipedian who defamed a certain sports journalist &#8220;can expect some interesting mail from the legal fraternity&#8221;. This likely stemmed from some (implausible) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dylan_Howard&amp;oldid=153893604" rel="nofollow">objectionable additions</a> to Mr Howard&#8217;s Wikipedia entry involving sex-changes, leprosy and penile attachment surgery.</p>
<p>Goes to show that these guys are serious about protecting their reputation against online smear campaigns and the like.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29808</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 05:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29808</guid>
		<description>So what your saying is that the write of the edit should have gone on the evening news and made the claim? The guy didn&#39;t make that claim, he only said that it was rumored. You know, like Howard didn&#39;t say that Braun was on EPO only that it was rumored! &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what your saying is that the write of the edit should have gone on the evening news and made the claim? The guy didn&#39;t make that claim, he only said that it was rumored. You know, like Howard didn&#39;t say that Braun was on EPO only that it was rumored! </p>
<p>Molly</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29807</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 05:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29807</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Sunday Age&lt;/i&gt; is reporting that a Wikipedian who defamed a certain sports journalist "can expect some interesting mail from the legal fraternity". This likely stemmed from some (implausible) &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dylan_Howard&#38;oldid=153893604" rel="nofollow"&gt;objectionable additions&lt;/a&gt; to Mr Howard&#39;s Wikipedia entry involving sex-changes, leprosy and penile attachment surgery.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Goes to show that these guys are serious about protecting their reputation against online smear campaigns and the like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Sunday Age</i> is reporting that a Wikipedian who defamed a certain sports journalist &#8220;can expect some interesting mail from the legal fraternity&#8221;. This likely stemmed from some (implausible) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dylan_Howard&amp;oldid=153893604" rel="nofollow">objectionable additions</a> to Mr Howard&#39;s Wikipedia entry involving sex-changes, leprosy and penile attachment surgery.</p>
<p>Goes to show that these guys are serious about protecting their reputation against online smear campaigns and the like.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10747</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10747</guid>
		<description>Good points. It would be hard to maintain you thought this was a lawful exchange.

I'm not sure what the law is around "finding" confidential documents, or if there's any way a doctor or patient could have legally sold them to her. So, if they can't be found or sold then that only leaves one possibility, right?

Maybe Seven did a calculation and thought that getting the AFL off their back over the Akermanis/Braun affair was worth the risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points. It would be hard to maintain you thought this was a lawful exchange.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the law is around &#8220;finding&#8221; confidential documents, or if there&#8217;s any way a doctor or patient could have legally sold them to her. So, if they can&#8217;t be found or sold then that only leaves one possibility, right?</p>
<p>Maybe Seven did a calculation and thought that getting the AFL off their back over the Akermanis/Braun affair was worth the risk.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10745</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10745</guid>
		<description>I have seen it written that the women was clearly not the owner of the documents and Seven could verify this and they therefor should know that the women was in no position to sell them the document. 

The other thing to me that proves they thought it was fishy is that they didn't agree to protect her as a source like you would expect with other sources. They handed her name over quicker then &lt;insert pun about doing something quickly here&gt;. 

Just my 2 cents.
Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have seen it written that the women was clearly not the owner of the documents and Seven could verify this and they therefor should know that the women was in no position to sell them the document. </p>
<p>The other thing to me that proves they thought it was fishy is that they didn&#8217;t agree to protect her as a source like you would expect with other sources. They handed her name over quicker then <insert pun about doing something quickly here>. </p>
<p>Just my 2 cents.<br />
Molly</insert></p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10743</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 01:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10743</guid>
		<description>Look, it could be. It probably boils down to "plausible deniability".

I think receiving stolen goods is a &lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; ("guilty mind") offence, which means that the prosecution has to establish beyond reasonable doubt that in the mind of the accused at the time, he/she &lt;i&gt;knew&lt;/i&gt; they were stolen. It's not enough to show that they actually were stolen. 

I expect Channel 7 (and its journos) would claim they believed "Catherine" when she said "Oh, I found these in the gutter". Medical records in the gutter? To my mind, that's less plausible than if she'd said it fell off the back of a truck.

However, I'm not sure about what "know" means here: reasonable suspicion, balance of probabilities, beyond reasonable doubt? How much do you really "know" about the stuff you buy on eBay or the Trading Post?

There are no doubt other defences, such as if Channel 7 intended to hand them over to police.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, it could be. It probably boils down to &#8220;plausible deniability&#8221;.</p>
<p>I think receiving stolen goods is a <i>mens rea</i> (&#8221;guilty mind&#8221;) offence, which means that the prosecution has to establish beyond reasonable doubt that in the mind of the accused at the time, he/she <i>knew</i> they were stolen. It&#8217;s not enough to show that they actually were stolen. </p>
<p>I expect Channel 7 (and its journos) would claim they believed &#8220;Catherine&#8221; when she said &#8220;Oh, I found these in the gutter&#8221;. Medical records in the gutter? To my mind, that&#8217;s less plausible than if she&#8217;d said it fell off the back of a truck.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not sure about what &#8220;know&#8221; means here: reasonable suspicion, balance of probabilities, beyond reasonable doubt? How much do you really &#8220;know&#8221; about the stuff you buy on eBay or the Trading Post?</p>
<p>There are no doubt other defences, such as if Channel 7 intended to hand them over to police.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29806</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 01:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29806</guid>
		<description>Good points. It would be hard to maintain you thought this was a lawful exchange.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#39;m not sure what the law is around "finding" confidential documents, or if there&#39;s any way a doctor or patient could have legally sold them to her. So, if they can&#39;t be found or sold then that only leaves one possibility, right?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Maybe Seven did a calculation and thought that getting the AFL off their back over the Akermanis/Braun affair was worth the risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points. It would be hard to maintain you thought this was a lawful exchange.</p>
<p>I&#39;m not sure what the law is around &#8220;finding&#8221; confidential documents, or if there&#39;s any way a doctor or patient could have legally sold them to her. So, if they can&#39;t be found or sold then that only leaves one possibility, right?</p>
<p>Maybe Seven did a calculation and thought that getting the AFL off their back over the Akermanis/Braun affair was worth the risk.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29805</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 01:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29805</guid>
		<description>&#60;insert/&#62;about doing something quickly here&#62;. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Just my 2 cents.&lt;br&gt;Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;insert/&gt;about doing something quickly here&gt;. </p>
<p>Just my 2 cents.<br />Molly</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29804</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 00:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29804</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; ("guilty mind") offence, which means that the prosecution has to establish beyond reasonable doubt that in the mind of the accused at the time, he/she &lt;i&gt;knew&lt;/i&gt; they were stolen. It&#39;s not enough to show that they actually were stolen. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I expect Channel 7 (and its journos) would claim they believed "Catherine" when she said "Oh, I found these in the gutter". Medical records in the gutter? To my mind, that&#39;s less plausible than if she&#39;d said it fell off the back of a truck.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;However, I&#39;m not sure about what "know" means here: reasonable suspicion, balance of probabilities, beyond reasonable doubt? How much do you really "know" about the stuff you buy on eBay or the Trading Post?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There are no doubt other defences, such as if Channel 7 intended to hand them over to police.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>mens rea</i> (&#8221;guilty mind&#8221;) offence, which means that the prosecution has to establish beyond reasonable doubt that in the mind of the accused at the time, he/she <i>knew</i> they were stolen. It&#39;s not enough to show that they actually were stolen. </p>
<p>I expect Channel 7 (and its journos) would claim they believed &#8220;Catherine&#8221; when she said &#8220;Oh, I found these in the gutter&#8221;. Medical records in the gutter? To my mind, that&#39;s less plausible than if she&#39;d said it fell off the back of a truck.</p>
<p>However, I&#39;m not sure about what &#8220;know&#8221; means here: reasonable suspicion, balance of probabilities, beyond reasonable doubt? How much do you really &#8220;know&#8221; about the stuff you buy on eBay or the Trading Post?</p>
<p>There are no doubt other defences, such as if Channel 7 intended to hand them over to police.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10725</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10725</guid>
		<description>Hmmm....I take your points on board and have examined my communications around and your inference that maybe I have gone to far probably has some merit and I believe I have fixed it up. Bad luck others haven't followed that lead, but they may get there own medicine in &lt;a href="http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/players-cold-shoulder-seven/2007/08/27/1188067032638.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;other forms&lt;/a&gt;.

I have left the email address as I don't see that as a problem (and would be happy to argue that to a judge if necessary). Personally I think Dylan has commented on the good feedback he has gotten and would say that I hope if your unhappy with the story and the Gutter media you comment to 7/Dylan (he has asked for it).

Greg, you seem to have an eye for legal matters, should 7 fear anything from this women (and another man) being charged? Could they be charged with dealing with stolen goods?

Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230;.I take your points on board and have examined my communications around and your inference that maybe I have gone to far probably has some merit and I believe I have fixed it up. Bad luck others haven&#8217;t followed that lead, but they may get there own medicine in <a href="http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/players-cold-shoulder-seven/2007/08/27/1188067032638.html" rel="nofollow">other forms</a>.</p>
<p>I have left the email address as I don&#8217;t see that as a problem (and would be happy to argue that to a judge if necessary). Personally I think Dylan has commented on the good feedback he has gotten and would say that I hope if your unhappy with the story and the Gutter media you comment to 7/Dylan (he has asked for it).</p>
<p>Greg, you seem to have an eye for legal matters, should 7 fear anything from this women (and another man) being charged? Could they be charged with dealing with stolen goods?</p>
<p>Molly</p>
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		<title>By: Molly</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29803</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29803</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/players-cold-shoulder-seven/2007/08/27/1188067032638.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;other forms&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I have left the email address as I don&#39;t see that as a problem (and would be happy to argue that to a judge if necessary). Personally I think Dylan has commented on the good feedback he has gotten and would say that I hope if your unhappy with the story and the Gutter media you comment to 7/Dylan (he has asked for it).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Greg, you seem to have an eye for legal matters, should 7 fear anything from this women (and another man) being charged? Could they be charged with dealing with stolen goods?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Molly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/players-cold-shoulder-seven/2007/08/27/1188067032638.html" rel="nofollow">other forms</a>.</p>
<p>I have left the email address as I don&#39;t see that as a problem (and would be happy to argue that to a judge if necessary). Personally I think Dylan has commented on the good feedback he has gotten and would say that I hope if your unhappy with the story and the Gutter media you comment to 7/Dylan (he has asked for it).</p>
<p>Greg, you seem to have an eye for legal matters, should 7 fear anything from this women (and another man) being charged? Could they be charged with dealing with stolen goods?</p>
<p>Molly</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10717</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-10717</guid>
		<description>Hi Molly,

Just a friendly reminder to you about the so-called &lt;a href="http://www.caslon.com.au/stalkingnote2.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;"cyberstalking"&lt;/a&gt; laws here in Victoria.

Did you know that the &lt;a href="http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/bc348d5912436a9cca256cfc0082d800/2550a989153b5bebca256cf600824ef2!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow"&gt;criminal provisions for providing a person's personal information online&lt;/a&gt; is up to ten years in jail?

I imagine that would cover personal mobile numbers, email addresses and other contact details. I'm not sure, but if the intent is to menace, harass or intimidate (or encourage others to do so) then it could look very bad for the suspect.

So, it seems the AFL is not alone in getting the courts to its dirty work of silencing members of the public.

(The difference here, of course, is about doing it in the name of citizens' personal security rather than a big corporate's brand value protection.)

Something to think about, anyway.

-Greg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Molly,</p>
<p>Just a friendly reminder to you about the so-called <a href="http://www.caslon.com.au/stalkingnote2.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;cyberstalking&#8221;</a> laws here in Victoria.</p>
<p>Did you know that the <a href="http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/bc348d5912436a9cca256cfc0082d800/2550a989153b5bebca256cf600824ef2!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">criminal provisions for providing a person&#8217;s personal information online</a> is up to ten years in jail?</p>
<p>I imagine that would cover personal mobile numbers, email addresses and other contact details. I&#8217;m not sure, but if the intent is to menace, harass or intimidate (or encourage others to do so) then it could look very bad for the suspect.</p>
<p>So, it seems the AFL is not alone in getting the courts to its dirty work of silencing members of the public.</p>
<p>(The difference here, of course, is about doing it in the name of citizens&#8217; personal security rather than a big corporate&#8217;s brand value protection.)</p>
<p>Something to think about, anyway.</p>
<p>-Greg.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29802</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afl.mollyzine.com/2007/08/27/no-honor-amongst-thieves-so-the-saying-goes/#comment-29802</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.caslon.com.au/stalkingnote2.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;"cyberstalking"&lt;/a&gt; laws here in Victoria.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Did you know that the &lt;a href="http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/bc348d5912436a9cca256cfc0082d800/2550a989153b5bebca256cf600824ef2!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow"&gt;criminal provisions for providing a person&#39;s personal information online&lt;/a&gt; is up to ten years in jail?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I imagine that would cover personal mobile numbers, email addresses and other contact details. I&#39;m not sure, but if the intent is to menace, harass or intimidate (or encourage others to do so) then it could look very bad for the suspect.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, it seems the AFL is not alone in getting the courts to its dirty work of silencing members of the public.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(The difference here, of course, is about doing it in the name of citizens&#39; personal security rather than a big corporate&#39;s brand value protection.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Something to think about, anyway.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;-Greg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.caslon.com.au/stalkingnote2.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;cyberstalking&#8221;</a> laws here in Victoria.</p>
<p>Did you know that the <a href="http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/bc348d5912436a9cca256cfc0082d800/2550a989153b5bebca256cf600824ef2!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">criminal provisions for providing a person&#39;s personal information online</a> is up to ten years in jail?</p>
<p>I imagine that would cover personal mobile numbers, email addresses and other contact details. I&#39;m not sure, but if the intent is to menace, harass or intimidate (or encourage others to do so) then it could look very bad for the suspect.</p>
<p>So, it seems the AFL is not alone in getting the courts to its dirty work of silencing members of the public.</p>
<p>(The difference here, of course, is about doing it in the name of citizens&#39; personal security rather than a big corporate&#39;s brand value protection.)</p>
<p>Something to think about, anyway.</p>
<p>-Greg.</p>
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